Do we go to Heaven when we die?

Question / Comment - Is soul sleep biblical?

I would be interested in your thoughts on the below subject.

God's blessings.

The Bible tells us in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 that “the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing. . . . their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

Also in Psalms 146:4 we see that in death, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Death is like a very deep sleep. There are no thoughts or emotions, and without thoughts or emotions there can be no consciousness. In death you are asleep in the grave, without knowledge, without emotions, and without consciousness.

There is a verse in the Bible that apparently contradicts what we have just learned about death. Luke 23:42,43 describes Jesus’ assurance to the thief on the cross that he would be saved. “And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” These words were spoken on Friday afternoon just before Jesus died. It appears that in this verse Jesus is telling the thief that that day (Friday) he would be with the Lord in paradise; thus, this verse seems to contradict the other verses showing death to be like a very deep sleep, without consciousness.

However, consider John 20:17, where Jesus, talking with Mary on Sunday morning after His resurrection, said, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: But go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” So, on Sunday morning Jesus made the statement that He had not yet been to paradise, to God the Father. How, then, could He have told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise on Friday evening with Jesus when He Himself would not be there? Where was Jesus after He died on the cross? He was asleep in the grave, just as the Scriptures say, until His resurrection on Sunday morning. Jesus Himself said in Matthew 12:40 that He would remain in the grave until his resurrection: “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Where, then, is the problem? Since Luke 23:43 is the verse that stands in contradiction with the other verses we have considered, there must be some problem with this one. The difficulty can be resolved easily. The original Greek text was written without punctuation. Punctuation was added later by the translators. The problem with this verse is the placement of the comma before the words “To day.” If the comma is placed after the words “To day,” the verse says that Jesus on that day promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise after the resurrection. This verse would then agree with the other verses of Scripture concerning death. It should therefore read, “Verily I say unto thee today, that thou shalt be with me in Paradise.” Jesus promised the thief “today” a place in paradise after the resurrection. Remember that the entire Bible must agree with itself; this is one of the methods God has given us so that we might know when we have these difficult verses interpreted correctly. Remember also that the original text had no punctuation and that the problem is with the comma, which was put there by a translator who did not understand.

The people who think they have died and come back were not really dead.

Death is not the end, however. There is to be a resurrection from death. Everyone who has died will experience a resurrection and will live again. John 5:28,29 tells us: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” The resurrection predicted in the Bible will be totally unlike the reported experiences of people who believe they have died and come back.

Reply:

Hi,

thanks for the email and the question. I'll quote some of the above in blue, and then comment underneath it.

"The Bible tells us in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 that “the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing..."

Basing Biblical doctrines primarily from that written in the book of Ecclesiastes is dodgy ground because the book of Ecclesiastes is written from the point of view of mere human reason - ie as a philosopher, one 'under the sun' (a phrase that occurs 29 times in the book.). As such, there are things in it that may seem true to 'one under the sun', but are statements that rely on human reasoning, not God's. Ecc 9:5 would certainly be a scripture that I put in this group. William MacDonald, in his Bible Believers Commentary, writes the following concerning Ecc 9:5 -

"This verse is constantly used by false teachers to prove that the soul sleeps in death, that consciousness ceases when the last breath is taken. Bit it is senseless to build a doctrine pf the hereafter on this verse, or on this book, for that matter. Ecclesiastes represents man's best conclusions as he searches for answers "under the sun"... It is what a wise man might think if he did not have a Bible."

Contrary to what human wisdom would say about men's thoughts after death, the Bible is full of examples that show that people are conscious after death as Jesus, Paul, and John in the book of Revelation show us. But more on that later!

Also in Psalms 146:4 we see that in death, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

While some translations, such as the KJV use the word 'thought' in this verse as you have quoted above, most do not. And I'm not just talking about modern 'loose' translations. For example:

NKJV 'His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.'
RSV 'When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.'
NASB 'His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.'
J.N. Darby Translation 'His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.'
Young 'His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished.'
NIV 'When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.'

So I wouldn't go basing a doctrine of soul sleep on that verse either as most versions indicate that it is the persons plans and purposes that they have been thinking about which perish and come to nothing upon death.

There is a verse in the Bible that apparently contradicts what we have just learned about death...Luke 23:42,43... seems to contradict the other verses showing death to be like a very deep sleep, without consciousness.

A quick note on this... Maybe it is just me, but I find that quite misleading. Well, at best misleading, at worst deceptive. Seems like the author wants to indicate that there is only one verse that seemingly contradicts what he has just put forth. There are plenty of verses that would teach the complete opposite of what he has written above. And we don't have to go to a book written as one 'under the sun' to prove it. We can look at what Jesus and Paul specifically taught concerning the issue. I'll address these later.

It is true that Jesus had not ascended to his Father by the time of his resurrection on Sunday morning as John 20:17 above indicates. It is a big assumption that the promise of 'paradise', at that time, to the thief on the cross, meant Heaven and being in the Father's presence. I don't believe that this is the case at all. Up until Jesus' resurrection, Jesus taught that those who died went either to Hades or to Abraham's bosom and their was a gulf between them. (Luke 16:19-31) Upon death, Jesus and the thief who believed in Jesus upon the cross went to Abraham's bosom (paradise). Contrary to what is written above, the scriptures do not state that Jesus was 'asleep in the grave'. As we have just seen, Jesus taught that both those who went to Hades or Abrahams bosom were very much "conscious" and aware of there surroundings. And it is crazy to suggest that Jesus, who is God, would have been experiencing 'soul sleep' during this time. Upon his resurrection, we read that many other graves where opened and people were resurrected and the Bible seems to indicate that those in Abraham's bosom where taken to heaven at his ascension (Eph 4:7-9) Today, after Jesus' resurrection and ascension, 'Paradise' is in Heaven as Paul indicates in 2 Cor 12:1-4. There is no contradiction here apart from that which is in the author's mind.

I agree that the Greek didn't have commas, but what would be the point in Jesus saying 'Truly, I say unto you today, you shall be with me in Paradise." Why even add the word 'today' in that sentence if that is the way we should read it? Of course Jesus was talking to the thief 'today'. Anytime you talk directly to someone, it is today! No, it doesn't seem like a valid argument to me. I looked up on the computer and couldn't find any other time that Jesus said he was telling them something 'today'. It seems redundant and pointless. No, it should read as every version that has ever comes out renders it - "Truly, I say unto you, today you shall be with me in Paradise." A wonderful promise!

I certainly agree that the Bible must agree with itself, as the author wrote above, and that is another reason why I reject soul sleep. There are plenty of scriptures that show that after death, people are still very much conscious of their surroundings even before the resurrection. As already indicated, Jesus specifically taught this in Luke 16:19-31, as well as his promise to the thief on the cross. Paul clearly believed it for he wrote:

2 Cor 5:6-8 'Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.'

Phil 1:21-24 'For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.'

1 Thes 4:13-14 'Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.'

You will note above that when Jesus returns from Heaven, to earth, at His return, he will bring with him those that have died in Christ. This indicates, as Paul did in the verses earlier, that they are in Heaven at the moment and it is from their that He will bring them. This agrees with what is written in Heb 12:23 which specifically states that the spirits of the righteous and the church (those that have died in Christ) are currently in Heaven -

Heb 12:23 'But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant.'

This agrees exactly with what we see in the book of Revelation. Revelation gives us several glimpses into Heavenly scenes and what we see is that people are there who have died in the tribulation and are awaiting the resurrection (mentioned in Chapter 20). These people are conscious, they talk, sing, worship and are in joy! They are not in a state of soul sleep even though their resurrection hasn't occurred yet. Some examples:

Rev 6:9-11 "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."

Rev 7:9-17 'After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

...Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

It seems very clear to me that believers who die go straight to be with the Lord and that 'soul sleep' is a fraud.

Hope this helps.

A reply on this by a different person who believes in soul sleep

re: http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/soulsleep.htm

The question in this site was not addressed very well, and several mistruths exist in the answer. The answerer is justifying tradition. He needs to clear his head, pray that the Spirit will reveal the truth, and start anew with this topic. One example (of many) of the answerer's ignorance is this verse, addressed below:

Read it again. And again. You have it backwards. This verse states the dead in Christ will be raised from earth to heaven, on the third day, just as Jesus was! This verse in no way states that He will bring them to earth at that time.

That's just one example. I could go on and on. Please don't teach until you have it together.

Our Reply:

Hi,

I have re-read that passage as suggested. Here is the passage:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. ¹⁴We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. ¹⁵According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The verse says that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep. The context determines what this applies to. The context is the coming of the Lord, when 'the Lord himself will come down from Heaven.' Therefore it is logical to apply the 'bring with Jesus' to the context of the Lord's coming down from Heaven. This is the only direction mentioned in the passage: Jesus comes from Heaven to the clouds in the air. You are confusing the rising of the body of the dead in Christ with the soul/spirit that is with the Lord and returns with Him:

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/dead%20in%20christ.htm

And while I wasn't just trying to justify tradition in my answer, (the answer I gave was from reading the scripture), I have since your reply looked up what 'The Bible Knowledge' commentary on my computer had to say. It said on 4:14:

4:14. Two reasons why Christians should not grieve like unbelievers are that Christians have a revelation from God that gives them hope and they have a glorious future with Christ. Just as certainly as Jesus died and was resurrected by the Father, so God will unite the resurrected dead in Christ with their Savior at His coming. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are among the best-attested facts of history. Since Christians know these events took place, they can be equally certain, Paul said, that the souls of believers who have died will return with Christ when He comes for His living saints. The prophecy of the Rapture is as sure to be fulfilled as the prophecies of Christ’s death and resurrection.

I also looked up what the Bible.org had to say as that is quite a well known theological website. They wrote on this verse:

"The Apostle tells us here that when Christ comes again, He will not come by Himself. He will come with those who have fallen asleep in (or through) Jesus"

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1655

For your convenience here is the link for where you can send them an email. I'm not sure, but I thought you may want to tell them to stop teaching unless they agree with what you think as well:

http://www.bible.org/email_list.php

Their reply:

No, Paul is talking specifically about the dead in Christ. He refers to them as those who fall asleep. These are those awaiting the resurrection. Later he says the dead in Christ will rise first. He said he wants us to understand what the situation is with these people. Using Christ as their predesessor, leader, and example, he explains that as Christ rose from the dead (on the third day), God will bring the dead in Christ out of their sleep as well (in the third millennium). This will occur just prior to the rapture, and we will all meet in the air on our way to heaven (I also believe we will ascend slowly for all to see).

Please don't twist this passage. There as several passages that have been twisted over the years in order to uphold traditional assumptions. Not a good idea. Read the word and listen to the Spirit, not to man. Please study it and pray about it.

Our Reply:

Hi,

that Paul is speaking about the dead in Christ is obvious. Both of us agree on that. That isn't even the question. The question is what does 'bring with Jesus' mean in relation to those believers who have died. The passage is about the coming of the Lord. He will bring those Christians with Him and He is only coming from one place - Heaven. You read your own thoughts into the passage that aren't there. For example, while we may both believe that after the resurrection/rapture the believers go back into Heaven, you can't get that from this passage. You are reading into it what isn't there. Or maybe you would like to tell me what verse in 1 Thes 4 says that? All we know from the passage is that Jesus comes from Heaven and brings those believers who have died with Him. There is then a resurrection of the dead in Christ and all believers will meet the Lord in the air.

If we were organising a BBQ later in the week and I said that I will bring some sausages with me then the logical normal expectation is that I will bring sausages to the BBQ. Not that I would bring sausages home after the BBQ! That is how you are trying to apply this passage... to something the text says nothing about! The whole passage is about His coming from Heaven... it says nothing about his going back! 'Bring with Jesus' can only relate to that coming from Heaven!

So there is a very good reason why I interpret this passage as most others do - because it logical and is based on what the passage says, not on reading into the text things that are not there.

All the best.

A reply from another person concerning this topic:

I am searching for the truth as to whether or not our spirit goes to "paradise" immediately upon dying or if it "sleeps" until the resurrection. I found this web page. I have a friend who believes we go to paradise immediately. But the more I look into the question the more I become convinced the opposite is true. So I have a few questions, some based on your answers on this webpage. And thank you for those.

It seems to me like people, for whatever reason, misunderstand the meaning behind some verses and use them to prove the wrong point. For example: "2 Cor 5:6-8 'Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.' " Paul does say he would prefer to be away from the body AND with the Lord. He does not say that being away from the body is synonymous with being with the Lord. Just like I could say I would prefer to be rich and living in Switzerland. It doesn't necessarily follow that being rich means I live in Switzerland. Paul is saying he would like both but does not say they will both happen at the same time. So I believe that saying this verse means "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" which I hear quoted all the time, is not correct. To my understanding this bible verse does not address whether you sleep until the resurrection or not.

Another point, nowhere in the bible that I can find does it use the term "resurrection of the body". It does talk about the resurrection of the dead. So for me this whole argument has to do with the definition of the word "resurrection". 2 Timothy 2:18 Paul says "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" KJV. Or in the, NIV "They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." So if resurrection means reanimating a dead body so it can be rejoined with the spirit that has moved on, then I understand your point. If resurrection means bringing back the spirit to life, than the above verse contradicts the spirit going to heaven immediately. Because if you are teaching the spirit has already been resurrected than you are one of the people Paul warns about. It all comes down to what does resurrection mean. I have looked up the meaning of the word in places like Strong's and they basically say the word means bringing the dead back to life. They don't indicate if that means the body or the spirit. Can you give any guidance on that?

One final comment. Was Lasarus dead? Did Jesus bring him back to life? If so, where was his spirit? If it went to paradise immediately, wasn't it extremely cruel for him to go to paradise only to make him come back? I wonder if Lasarus was suicidal after that. I have had people tell me he was only sleeping and the soul never went to paradise. If that is the case then Jesus didn't bring him back from the dead and the bible is lying. And if the soul is in paradise immediately after dying then he was called back from paradise. OR, the soul was sleeping, like most all souls (there are some exceptions) sleep until the second coming. Jesus said Lasarus was just sleeping and Paul often refers to dead people as just sleeping. So I don't understand why, when they say sleeping, it doesn't mean the soul is sleeping.

Thank you. I very much enjoyed reading your page and may God bless you.

Our Reply:

Thanks for your email. I'll write my comments in blue underneath yours. You said:

It seems to me like people, for whatever reason, misunderstand the meaning behind some verses and use them to prove the wrong point. For example: "2 Cor 5:6-8 'Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.' " Paul does say he would prefer to be away from the body AND with the Lord. He does not say that being away from the body is synonymous with being with the Lord. Just like I could say I would prefer to be rich and living in Switzerland. It doesn't necessarily follow that being rich means I live in Switzerland. Paul is saying he would like both but does not say they will both happen at the same time. So I believe that saying this verse means "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" which I hear quoted all the time, is not correct. To my understanding this bible verse does not address whether you sleep until the resurrection or not.

Paul firstly says that 'Home in the body' = 'Away from the Lord'. Straight away he establishes a relationship between the two thoughts. They are linked.

The logical conclusion someone could make from that statement alone would be that 'Away from the body' = 'Home with the Lord'. Paul then goes on to say that he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. In both cases the two thoughts are linked. One leads to the other. He is not talking about unrelated things like in your example about riches and Switzerland. They are connected. Even people who believe in Soul Sleep acknowledge that. They just say that being absent from the body would be 'like' being present with the Lord straight away because when you sleep you are not conscious of time. But that isn't what Paul said nor does it correlate with passages that distinctly show the believers with the Lord BEFORE the resurrection. (Which I mentioned in the webpage you read).

In Philippians Paul again shows that when he dies (absent from the body) he is with Christ which is better by far. Again, those thoughts are linked.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labour for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far." (Philippians 1:21-23)

Why would the resurrection concern bringing the spirit back to life? Does it die? Scripture doesn't teach that. The resurrection concerns the body.

Have a look at the main chapter about the resurrection - 1 Cor 15. It says that Christ is the firstfuits of the resurrection. And at second coming He will transform our body to be like unto His body scripture tells us (Phil 3:21). So when Jesus was raised from the dead (seeing He was the firstfruits of the resurrection) was that a bodily resurrection? Of course it was. It is only some cults and unbelievers that say it was a spiritual resurrection only. Scripture says otherwise -

"And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:38-39).

Also have a look at how the main chapter on resurrection talks about the body. Yes, it will be a new body, a spiritual body, one that is not perishable. But the resurrection is still about the body:

But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
(1 Corinthians 15:35-52)

Lazarus' soul and spirit would have gone to Abraham's bosom which is where the righteous went before the resurrection of Jesus. The Bible doesn't tell us what Lazarus thought after his resurrection so it is pointless speculating. The Bible doesn't apply 'sleep' to the soul of a person. It is only the body that has been placed in the grave and 'sleeps' in that sense until the resurrection. The actual person is with the Lord.

All the best.